The Crippled God Spoiler Discussion Place

[RobMRobM]

Thanks, Shalter. - Re Tavore back in Unta - who told her? The Emperor (pre-Laseen?). How old was she then?
- side note - so Tavore is a Talon? When could that have happened?
- Re Drek - how did Priest know Drek was under the hill? How did Tavore know to bring priest to find a God to protect them? I'm still confused.
- Re Snake - still confusing but thanks for providing some info.

Rob

[shalter]

Thanks, Shalter. - Re Tavore back in Unta - who told her? The Emperor (pre-Laseen?). How old was she then?
- side note - so Tavore is a Talon? When could that have happened?
Rob

Yes, it appears that Tavore is a Talon. When she takes the talon out of the box and puts it around her neck, that certainly seems to cinch that point. This also explains how she was able to get Baudin to go protect Felisin.
The next part is all a guess, but it kind of fits. I would guess that time-wise, it happened about when Paran went missing. She mentions to someone that everything was triggered when house Paran's first born son went missing. Since the Talons seem to be a family affair, we can guess that their father was probably a Talon. For some reason he didn't tell Paran about this and lost his chance when Paran went missing. Thus, he brings in Tavore into the family business.
She also mentions that she is a "child of the Emperor." I took this to be in a figurative sense--she believes in his plans and goals rather than she is actually descended from him. This might imply that her good feelings for the Emperor's side of things comes about earlier. Paran does mention that she had a lot of exposure to military figures even as a girl.

[Daydreamer]

I think this confusion stemmed from Koryk's POV. On first read I got the really strong vibe that Koryk was envisioning a better god than the ones he knew from Wu to that point, being revived in front of him. However, considering he was (at least a little) aspected to the CG throughout the last couple of books due to the infection that left him not quite right in the head, his POV is suspect. From his vantage though, seeing a potential savior being reborn, only to be knifed by one of the Wu pantheon, that's gotta suck. And since its his POV we get, I can see how people would also think Cotillion's action sucked until they re-read it/think about it, which SE so conveniently mentions to us via Fiddler a few scenes later.

I will admit to being one of those who were very confused by this the first time. In my defense it was about 2am and I just could not put the damn thing down. Re-reading it after some sleep it came out much clearer. There's some set-up for it in the conversation with Mael, Krul etc in the previous scenes. Not to mention the line 'then death shall be her release' said in relation to Korabas. It did occur to me that perhaps releasing tCG was impossible and was the plan had always been to kill him with everything else being a lie to make people go along with it. But that doesn't really seem to work with the jade light shooting upwards and the Jade Strangers leaving. So, I'll stick with the release explanation.

I saw the release of the CG as a good thing, but at the same time I wonder. Releasing him was a compassionate thing, sure, as being the plaything/slave/sub to a whole pantheon of beings would be quite the nightmare existence. But then I think on how the Jade Strangers were retreating at the end of the tale, and considered that while the act of releasing him was compassionate, the true goal may have been to avoid the Moon's fate for Wu itself. Had the Strangers crashed down through the planet, everything would be for naught anyway. Again, just a suspicion, but altruism for altruism's sake just doesn't seem a real MO for a lot of the players of the story.

Yes, I'm left wondering just what ST and Cot's motives were in all this. Saving the planet does seem like a good one. I'm also confused about what Edgewalker's line from the beginning refers to: 'Even should you succeed, Cotillion. Beyond all expectation, beyond, even, all desire. They will still speak of your failure.' Anyone got an explanation?

Overall, I liked the book. Finishing it at about 3am I was very disappointed but I was tired and it had been a bad day. Thinking back over it I keep coming up with far more bits that I loved than that I disliked. I think it will re-read very well, approaching it without expectations that end up not being met.

BTW, would it be a good idea to set-up a thread like this for the series re-read so that people who want to discuss spoilers have somewhere to do it without having to mess with whiting out spoilers, which doesn't work some (most, for me) of the time?

[Daydreamer]

3) I was quite saddened by Mappo's death. On the other hand, I took Icarium's statement about remembering as a sign of hope. Sure, he's said similar things in the past, but this time it felt to me that maybe it wasn't just a loop.

I agree with you on this! Horrible, horrible scene. But afterwards I did find it somewhat hopeful. I don't agree with the people on the Malazan Empire forums who say he remembered Mappo there. I would have expected more of a reaction to that. But I think he remembered something specific linked to that shard of pot. And I think, without someone constantly 'deflecting' him from his memories, he could well be going to remember more. I'm hoping for something with him and Ublala in a future series. Lots of unanswered question left surrounding Icarium, I feel.

[Fiddler]

Yes, it appears that Tavore is a Talon. When she takes the talon out of the box and puts it around her neck, that certainly seems to cinch that point. This also explains how she was able to get Baudin to go protect Felisin.
The next part is all a guess, but it kind of fits. I would guess that time-wise, it happened about when Paran went missing. She mentions to someone that everything was triggered when house Paran's first born son went missing. Since the Talons seem to be a family affair, we can guess that their father was probably a Talon. For some reason he didn't tell Paran about this and lost his chance when Paran went missing. Thus, he brings in Tavore into the family business.
She also mentions that she is a "child of the Emperor." I took this to be in a figurative sense--she believes in his plans and goals rather than she is actually descended from him. This might imply that her good feelings for the Emperor's side of things comes about earlier. Paran does mention that she had a lot of exposure to military figures even as a girl.

Remember Throatslitter's POV in DoD, where he mentioned he had to find the other Talon that was with the Bonehunters, since he needed an ally; IIRC he wasn't trusting Tavore's motives at about the same time.

Oh irony... From those scenes in DoD (and a POV Throatslitter had in RG) I was preparing for Throatslitter killing Tavore in this book, in the aftermath of the battle with the K'Çhain Nah'rukh... ;-)


There was only one plotline that I would have liked to see more of: Oponn going after the Errant, to teach him some about pushing and pulling...

[shalter]

Speaking of dragons , the manifestation of Tiam is really interesting. I have a theory that the many dragons into one is related to the Di'vers effect. In RotCG, we see the Di'vers that has become separated into distinct individuals. Maybe all of the 'pure' dragons originate from this also.

[thomstel]

Speaking of dragons , the manifestation of Tiam is really interesting. I have a theory that the many dragons into one is related to the Di'vers effect. In RotCG, we see the Di'vers that has become separated into distinct individuals. Maybe all of the 'pure' dragons originate from this also.

Ayup. The dragon stuff was still totally mystifying, even if more facts became known. I can't get it all to gel into any sort of cohesive meta-dragon theory.

Although the thought that there was only one God(dess) Tiam in Starvald Demelian, who then became D'ivers-like as the pure Elient, that's a very cool thought. It echoes with a couple things:
- Multiple dragons can end up in a mind-meld state when a Storm is formed, just like a D'ivers functions normally
- The K'Chain (at least the Short-Tails) have this same level of a communal mind, to the point of being nearly useless when alone. Considering they worshipped/based their society on dragons...

Here's hoping there's some more to be unearthed in the Kharkanas books when our favorite Andii get dragonfied.

[RobMRobM]

Re the Snake, one nice point I got from Westeros CG thread. The FA suppressed the local god. That god was a D'ivers with locusts. Thus, the intervention of locusts was the local god getting payback against the FA army. All makes sense, except why does Badalle have power to contol it - and why was Snake formed in first place. Rob

[SamarDev]

Nice, a spoiler thread!
In the prologue Cotillon asks Eloth, the Mockra-dragon: 'Will you dream for me? (...) Listen carefully then, this is how it must be.'
And now I wonder: what does she dream??

[shalter]

That's a good question, Samar. My guess would be that it had something to do with forging the sword.