SPOILER thread for A Game of Thrones Read

[EliBishop]

I feel compelled to comment on Dany's supposed barreness. This theory is apparently based on the witch woman's comments at the funeral pyre. Excuse me, but this woman has already seriously misled Dany on several points and we're supposed to take the witch woman's statement on this point as gospel?

There aren't many characters in the series who have never told a lie... but Mirri, in her brief career, was one of them. Seriously, I don't think she ever said anything that wasn't true; at worst, she just didn't offer information that someone neglected to ask about. Why would she lie to Dany now? Her revenge is already complete. (Besides, it's not like Mirri's statement is the only reason to think this is true; what happened to Dany's child suggests pretty strongly that she was exposed to the magic equivalent of radioactive waste.)

Mirri's revenge is perfect because Drogo and Dany could've avoided it at any point, if only they weren't the way they were. The medicine she prescribed for Drogo's wound is (as far as we know) the real deal, and she stresses how important it is to follow her instructions; but Drogo, predictably, is arrogant enough to ignore the instructions, and Dany, predictably, just goes along with Drogo and hopes it'd be all right. So he ends up with a fatal infection. Dany asks Mirri to save his life, and Mirri says it's possible but it'll require sacrificing another life. Dany doesn't ask her for the crucial details-- which is also predictable, because Dany has bought into the Dothraki's confidence that the khal will always win somehow and that his son is destined to rule the world. And Dany can't imagine that someone whose life she saved wouldn't have her best interests at heart, because she can't imagine that anyone could think slavery was a fate worse than death; Dany has been thinking like a slaveowner.

Mirri is doing what beaten-down workers have always done: "work to rule"-- that is, follow the rules and do exactly what's asked of you but don't go above and beyond, and don't bother arguing with your boss's stupid decisions even if you know they're going to bite him in the ass.

[CloudMist]

I didn't say Mirri lied; she just told the truth like an Aes Sedai who gives you instructions on how to defuse a bomb. The bomb requires that wires have to be cut in the following order: red, purple, green, black, the AS knowing that if the 3rd wire cut isn't the green, the bomb explodes. The AS (speaking no word that is not true) tells you to cut the wires in this fashion: red, purple, black. Result: explosion. Similarly, when she told Danerys that she would bear no children "until the sun rises in the west", Mirri may have left out an important "if" clause.

[brentodd]

Has there been any foreshadowing that she's not barren? If she ends up getting pregnant, and the explanation is just "oh - Mirri lied", that would seem like a bit of a cop out. But if there have been visions, or dreams or something, then at least it's set up better. Or even like a subtle thought from Dany about how she's got her period would give some reason to doubt Mirri's honesty.

[EliBishop]

CloudMist, I don't want to argue this to death, but I still really disagree with your description of what Mirri did. In your bomb example, the green wire would be a detail that no one could possibly be expected to guess. That'd be like a little kid's trick: "I said 'not' but I just said it too quiet for you to hear", "I had my fingers crossed", etc. Mirri didn't do that. When she was giving Drogo medical care, she told Drogo and Dany exactly what to do, and they didn't do it. Then after Drogo was already half dead, Dany asked if there was a way to save his life and Mirri said yes, but it would require sacrificing another life. If Dany had stopped for a second to think, there are some pretty obvious questions to ask: (1) is it possible for Drogo to survive without really getting better, and (2) am I just sacrificing a horse, or something that I really value? Dany not only doesn't ask these, but overrules everyone who tries to get her to proceed with caution... which I think is in character for her, given the things I mentioned before, but still it required being blind to a lot of things. It was a trap, but it was a trap that only would've worked on someone who was blind in exactly that way.

[Patrick C]

Just to quick throw my 2 cents in. There were prophetic dreams of Dany feeling blood on her thighs as she stood in a fire, I take that to symbolize "giving birth" to the dragons, which you could say happened both figuratively and literally. Her stillborn child looked like some sort of dragon/human hybrid, with scales and a tail, and her miscarrying that child led directly to the hatching of the dragon eggs. Daenerys is the "Mother of Dragons." To be honest, I don't know if the issue of whether she could have a child or not will come up for quite awhile, but until it does we are just stuck with wondering whether Mirri lied or not. And anyway, in a world of magic, even if it was true when Mirri said it, that doesn't mean it will always be true. The sun may very well rise in the west before this is through.

[duckchick]

It is possible that Mirri lied, and I used to cling to the belief that she had, but now I'm not so sure. Yet it's also true that the sun may very well rise in the west, as we have no idea what the Long Winter might have in store, besides The Others.

On the R+L=J theory, when would it be a good time to introduce it to Leigh? After the read through is done, perhaps? I know we have no definitive word that it's true, so I often wonder if it's a good idea to even mention it.

[RobMRobM]

duck - there is no good time for us to introduce it to Leigh. Needs to come up organically from Leigh or the newbies.

Sun may rise in the West - reference to lots and lots of dragon flames in Westeros, perhaps?

I had a separate thought that arguably the best King for Westeros after all is said and done in Tyrion, which would tie in to Maester Aemon's reference to him as a giant in GoT. Query whether his wife, Sansa, could actually be his Queen.

Rob

[brentodd]

On the R+L=J theory, when would it be a good time to introduce it to Leigh? After the read through is done, perhaps? I know we have no definitive word that it's true, so I often wonder if it's a good idea to even mention it.

We should totally have a pool on when she figures it out - though I can't think of very many specific clues off the top of my head. I bet she gets it the first time Rhaegar choosing Lyanna as the queen of love an beauty or whatever is mentioned. That'd be quicker than I got it, but she's a pretty sharp cookie...

But yeah - no good time to introduce the idea to the first timers - let them figure it out on their own.

[CloudMist]

duck - there is no good time for us to introduce it to Leigh. Needs to come up organically from Leigh or the newbies.

Sun may rise in the West - reference to lots and lots of dragon flames in Westeros, perhaps?

I had a separate thought that arguably the best King for Westeros after all is said and done in Tyrion, which would tie in to Maester Aemon's reference to him as a giant in GoT. Query whether his wife, Sansa, could actually be his Queen.

Rob

I was going to post about my thoughts upon finishing Book 2 but WTF? Tyrion's married to Sansa? I knew I should have gone ahead and bought the Kindle 4-pack. I agree that Tyrion or Jon would make the best king.

In conclusion, I heart Dolorous Edd.

[RobMRobM]

Cloud - there are some unusual twists in the Tyrion-Sansa situation. Be patient - don't freak out. Rob